http://www.largeherbivore.org/home/ http://www.largeherbivore.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_44 Dr. Alan McElligott, School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, Queen Mary University of London asked us by e-mail: One of my work colleagues here (Fanis Missirlis) is Greek and he discovered a Greek researcher involved in work on fallow deer on Rhodes (Anastasios Legakis). I wrote to Dr. Lagakis, but did not receive a reply. THE QUESTION: I have worked on the behavioural ecology of fallow deer for quite a few years. My publications are listed here - http://sites.google.com/site/alanmcelligott/publications Let me know if you would like pdf copies of any papers. The numbers 26 and 22 on this list are "open access". So, anyone could access them from anywhere. They are fallow deer behavioural biology papers rather than conservation ones. I recently became concerned about the fallow deer on Rhodes, because I heard that they are perhaps threatened with extinction. They seem to represent an extremely important genetic group for fallow deer, so this would be a great shame if it happened. I am really happy to know that there is ongoing research on these animals. Are the animals deer living all over Rhodes or in some parks? Tue, 13 Jul 2010 11:32:49 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_44 http://www.largeherbivore.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_43 ==================== Roland Wirtz wrote by e-mail: Hi Wolfgang, just back from the EAZA Conservation Forum, where Hans Kampf, Executive Director of the Large Herbivore Foundation ( see www.largeherbivore.org) Simon Stuart and I talked about the last pure fallow deer in Turkey and Rhodes. Simon Stuart, by the way, is fully aware of the fallow deer problem and it is also mentioned on the Red list site (see entry for Fallow deer at www.iuncredlist.org) - in fact Simon started to raise the issue with Hans. Hans is keen to communicate to you about this. Hans wants to start some efforts for the Fallow deer. =========================================== Hans Kampf reflected: dear Wolfgang and Ronald Thank you very much for the good talk we have had. I am also very worried about the numbers of the pure fallow deer. I was mailed a couple of months ago by Alan McElligot: http://www.largeherbivore.org/person/show/amcelligott about the fallow deer at Rhodos. I am also looking forward to get contact with Emre Can again, since we have met each other in Turkey. Could you bring me again in contact with Emre? The website is developed in a way that everyone with a password can enter the interactive discussion. The website is an open source website, with WIKI-like possibilities. If you have comments or information or if you would like to start a discussion about a species or a landscape etc., please put your comments direct on the website, where the discussion should have to take place. We are still in a trial and error phase, but the subjects Wolfgang mentioned are very interesting to start with. I am very pleased to play the role of mediator. We have about 35 species in our region, I hope that the support network can be developed in such a way that we get interest groups for the important species, so that we get a more and more improved website community, with the most actual situation and clear needs what has to be done, besides a number of priority issues, such as E. bison in Europe. That would become the base for further (internal and external) communication and fundraising. ==================================== Roland Wirtz wrote by e-mail: Thank you, Hans, for following up on this right away. Wolfgang has the contact details for Emre Can, he wil lsurely provide these to you. You might perhaps consider, throuzh EAZA, to get in touch with the two leading zoos in Turkey and Greece (Attika Zoo near Athens and Bursa Zoo in Turkey) - these zoos might in some way or another perhaps be interested in assisting with conservation of the native Fallow deer in their countries. I don't know the people at theses zoos, but people at the EAZA office will undoubteldy be able to give you names. Koen Brouwer, former Director of the EAZA office and now based in Spain is, as far as I know , still doing consultancy work for Bursa zoo, hence he might be another contact (if you want, ask for Koen's mail address as well at the EAZA office). The problem really is that NOBODY really is aware of this conservation issue relating to the 'common' Fallow Deer, so lobbying even the "experts" (the people in zoos, conservation, sience) etc is important. ================================================================== Wolfgang wrote Emere Can: Dear Emre, Hans Kampf (ECNC, The Large Herbivores, Eurasian Support Network), Roland Wirth (Munich Zoological Society - ZGAP) and I are concerned about reports claiming that there are less than 40 individuals of the unique fallow deer left in Turkey. This is the only surviving autochthonous population of this species and an outstanding part of the natural heritage of your country and also of Europe as a whole. We are interested in supporting its recovery and therefore would be very obliged for any information about plans and activities of the appropriate authorities concerning this matter. The new issue of the journal of ZGAP will go to the printers by the end of this month. In order to draw attention to the subject in question it would be very helpful to include a note on the situation of the Turkish fallow deer and if possible also to add a picture. Any help you can provide us concerning this important conservation issue would be appreciatied. Thank you very much for your kind cooperation. ======================================== Roland Wirth mailed: Dear Hans and Simon, Wolfgang Frey already found out that: (a) The present stock of original Fallow Deer in Turkey is presently around 100 in the enclosure and an estimated 30 in the protected area nearby. The number is 30 is based on very poor date (could be less or more) (b) One stag of the semi-domestic stock, that exists across Europe was introduced to the population years ago (by local authorities, who obviously don't realize the genetic importance of their population). It is not certain though that this animal really bred and spread ist genes in the population. (b) In addition to poaching and poor population management the risk of further wll-meant but totally ill-guided population augmentation with semi-domestic Fallow Deer imported form wherever in Europe is seemingly a major risk and could happen anytime. Wolfgang is trying to find out more. Obviously the population on Rhodes Island is potentially very important (and if the stag introduced in Turkey years ago did breed, it might be the last pure population on the planet). Neither I nor Wolfgang have any contacts in Greece. Any suggesteion of people one cold contact to help with this in Greece (or who at least could giude us to people in Greece who might have an interest in this) ? Best wishes, Roland Simon N. Stuart PhD, Chair IUCN Species Survival Commission commented: ================================== Dear Roland, Many thanks for this. I find it impossible to imagine that, over the last 2,000 years, wild fallow deer in Turkey have not on occasion interbred with animals of domestic origin. So in that sense, probably no animals can be considered to be 100% representative of the original wild fallow deer in a genetic sense. So the semi-domestic stag we know about was probably only the latest in many such incidents going back to ancient times. I think we have to admit that the animals in Turkey are simply the closest thing we have to wild European Fallow Deer. The animals introduced to Rhodes, apparently in Neolithic times, represent the other significant population that might be genetically close to wild animals (though outside the natural range). The person who has really studied this issue in depth is Marco Messeti - marco.masseti@unifi.it. I see that a certain D. Mertzanidou contributed the Greek information to the Red List. I don't know this person, but I'm sure we could track down him/her if you wish. I have copied various people from the Deer SG here, because there is clearly a cloud over the current IUCN Red List status of this species (see http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/42188/0). Its current Red List status is Least Concern, and this can only be justified if we include animals in mainland southern Europe (supposedly in the natural range) as wild. I know that Marco was not happy with the assessment, and I wonder if the RL assessment should be based on the Turkish population alone. So over to the DSG on this one! Concerning the conservation of the animals in Turkey, you might want to contact Guven Eken, who runs Doga Dernegi, an important conservation NGO in Turkey. His email address is guven.eken@dogadernegi.org. I hope this helps, and all the best, Simon N. Stuart PhD, Chair IUCN Species Survival Commission ============================= Roland Wirth: Thank you, Simon. I have copied Marco Masseti as well now. Right, of course, previous interbreeding could have happened, but based on Masseti's data of a significant genetic uniqueness of the Turkish and Rhodes population, it would not seem to have had a major influence. I haven't seen any photos of these animals, but hear they also look somewhat different from the introduced populations across Europe. Taking, therefore, morphological and genetic date into consideration (and further accepting Helmut Hemmer's conclusion that many semi-captive or introduced populations show signs of beginning domestication) one could make a point of treating the populations on Rhodes and Turkey as different from the other populations as for example African wild asses from domestic donkeys (well, not quite as different, but clearly along the same route). If, the Deer Group (of which, incidentally, I am also still a member) therefore would adopt the separation of the Turkish/Rhodes population versus the rest based on the above arguments, we would immediately get a red list status of some level for the 'original' Fallow Deer - an important first step to draw wider attention to the conservation of the Rhodes/Turkish population. I am sure a press release on this 'surprise status' of a species considered very common by almost everybody might be picked up widely across Europe and perhaps catalyze action. What does everybody think ? Best wishes, Roland ================ Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:38:35 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/fallow-deer/#PageComment_43 http://www.largeherbivore.org/goitered-gazelle/#PageComment_42 In the chapter of population size and trend there are different sources with different population estimates of the same populations. Can anyone tell how large the populations at the moment actually are? Fri, 14 May 2010 07:48:59 +0200 Mirte Kruit http://www.largeherbivore.org/goitered-gazelle/#PageComment_42 http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_41 Waltraut Zimmerman sent a comemnt by e-mail: The same is with the cattle: Aurochs stands for Bos primigenius - the wild species. "Aurochs" could stand for the feral cattle (LHF has also Aurox in use). In Germany we decided on this on the VFA e.V. level last week and our foundation's name was changed from Verein zur Förderung der Auerochsenzucht in : Verein zur Förderung des "Auerochsen". Auerochse is the wild species. So, the quotation marks are important: without = wild, with = feral, domesticated. So, when you use Aurochs (without quotation marks) as synonym for the feral cattle, then this is wrong. Tue, 11 May 2010 11:18:40 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_41 http://www.largeherbivore.org/horse/#PageComment_40 Waltraut Zimmerman commented by e-mail: To be clear, so that we correctly understand what we mean, I make the following proposal: Equus ferus gmelini is either the European Wild Horse or the Tarpan. The feral horses then can be named either Konik (which I prefer) or "Tarpan" in quotation marks. "Tarpan" is o.k. for me, however, I do not like it as much as the name Konik, as the European wild horse, also called Tarpan, most likely did not look like the breeds of today, as the reconstruction was done after the phenotype of the last caught individual, which turned out to be a domesticated horse, many years later after Nobis investigated it thoroughly. However, as this name is in use, I would not object as long as it is written with quotation marks. So, we would distinguish between Tarpan (wild) and "Tarpan" (domesticated). Tue, 11 May 2010 11:17:02 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/horse/#PageComment_40 http://www.largeherbivore.org/heck-cattle/#PageComment_38 In Germany it was decided to spell the domesticated Aurochs "Auerochse" in quotation marks. Thus we decided against the proposal of the LHF to write the name with an X, Aurox (in German Aueroxe). The VFA e.V. is now called: Verein zur Förderung des "Auerochsen". We chose this version, because of semantic reasons. However, we have the same problem with the primitive horse breeds, especially the reconstructed Tarpan. I propose to change the name of the domesticated Tarpan also into "Tarpan". And, last not least we should not use the synonym Aurochs, as this name is occupied for the wild ancestor. We should write "Aurochs", accordingly. Tue, 11 May 2010 08:55:09 +0200 Zimmermann Waltraut http://www.largeherbivore.org/heck-cattle/#PageComment_38 http://www.largeherbivore.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_37 dear Waltraut thanks a lot for this information. The rewilding process in larger areas as the Oostvaardersplassen, where the populations of animals can develop itself without, or a under a very low level of human influence is a very interesting process and needs / deserves time. I think the word "tameness" can also lead to misunderstandings, wild animals can be very tame (and easy to approach) when they don't (have to) fear people. The point is that should not act in dependence on people. Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:41:04 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_37 http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_36 dear Waltraut I am very much looking forward to your advice in this. It should also be clear for the larger public what the difference is between the extinct species and the breed. The difference between Auerox (breed) and Aurochs (wild, but exticnt) is in fact very little, but can be explained. Could you please write some explanation for the website next week? Hans Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:27:00 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_36 http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_35 Waltraut Zimmermann sent by e-mail this comment: The correct name for the cattle is Bos primigenius f. taurus. This weekend we will have a meeting of the VFA (Verein zur Förderung der Auerochsenzucht) with - among others - one topic to change the word Auerochsenzucht. The name Auerochse or Aurochs is reserved for the wild species, so the discussion will be to either follow the proposal of the LHF and change it to Aueroxe(n) or to "Auerochse(n)" with quotation marks. I can send you the result and the discussion points next week and perhaps we should use the analogue word in English? Aurox(en) or "Aurochs(es)? Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:21:45 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/cattle-breeds/#PageComment_35 http://www.largeherbivore.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_34 Waltraut Zimmermann wrote this remark by e-mail: Dear Hans, I see that we need an account to participate in discussions on the website and I asked for it. However, let me answer already in this mail. 1. The f in the species name Equus ferus f. caballus means forma and one does not write it in italics. 2. A domestication happens over thousands of years and by selection the species is loosing a lot of it's gene pool and genetic variety . The specimen cannot regain this. Additionally, our animals are kept on mini-pastures without any predators and they cannot choose where to go. Even on the largest areas like Oostvaadersplassen and Hortobágy with more than 2000 ha grazing ground, we have to look after them and feed them or influence the breeding by taking away the bulls, so that calves are not born in the winter time - if we do not want to loose too many animals. I know that in Oostvaadersplassen this was not done in the past and in the first years almost all animals survived. We should not forget that the climate there is relatively mild in comparison with Eastern areas. But I wonder whether the horses will not phase them out one day, when the winter pasture is shrinking because of the increasing number of animals. By the way our student, who is doing her PhD on the Heck cattle in Hortobágy, has meanwhile strong evidence that the climate will be a limiting factor for the survival, with the consequence that we cannot recommend to let the cattle graze in colder areas without support from humans. We will have more and more people on our planet and grassland is shrinking rapidly. So, all in all I cannot see, where we can keep this species under wild conditions, and therefore I would never use the word dedomesticate. To feralize means more that they loose tameness. In ideal surroundings they could perhaps survive without any support from humans. But where do we have ideal conditions? Mild climate and a very big protected park? That's it from my side so far. Best regards, Waltraut Hartmuth Jungius reflected as follows: Dear Hans, as a former student at the Institut für Haustierkunde from the University of Kiel, I can only underwrite what Waltraut says below. It is so important for the credibility of the Foundation and our team that we stay on firm scientific grounds and do fall into a trap of "popularising". Best wishes, Hartmut Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:19:35 +0200 Hans Kampf http://www.largeherbivore.org/konik-horse/#PageComment_34